Thursday, February 19, 2009

Did someone hit the reset button?

How many times have you found yourself trying to engage an anti and run into the following talking points?

The 2A is a State’s right to have a Militia.
Do you have the right to own howitzers, B-52’s and nukes?
The 2A covers Flintlock muskets, not modern firearms with shoulder things that go up.
With a modern military, the 2A is irrelevant.
It’s the job of the police to protect us.

Most of the rest fall into the general category of being utterly incapable of making a distinction between wolves and sheepdogs.

How many times have you responded:

Individuals have Rights, States have powers. The organized vs unorganized Militia distinction.
The Militia Acts of 1792 and the distinction between hand held and crew served weapons. The difference between firearms and destructive devices.
Quill pens, printing press, radio, TV, interweb tubes, blah blah blah.
True nature of the 2A as a defense against tyranny. Power in the hands of the people. The Revolutionary War.
Cops can’t be everywhere, cops only respond after a crime has occurred, cops too heavy to carry.

How many minds have you changed? Hoplophobes into neutrals? Nuetrals into pro-gunners? How many newbies have you taken to the range? Ever convinced someone to go out and buy their first gun and take some safety training? I’m not in any way trying to say the above arguments are ineffective, I’m honestly asking what arguments have you found to be the most effective? What’s your ice breaker for an anti. How do you engage and frame the topic?

I’m just a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal, but I like this approach. Once I get a hint at pure unadulterated PSH, I ask a simple question.

Would you like to come over to my house and join me in tracking down the skunk that lives by the river so we can poke him with pointy sticks?

Then I ask them why not.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great question, Kaveman. The single most effective argument I have ever used never touches on any of the "philosophy" issues you bring up. The best argument I've used is this:

"You're right. Most people never need a gun. 99 times out of a hundred. But, I think guns are like fire extinguishers. Having a fire extinguisher doesn't make me a fireman. But having a fire extinguisher can keep a small problem from becoming a big problem. And, when you need a fire extinguisher, you REALLY need a fine extinguisher."

Works every time. You can see the lights go on in their eyes.

Anonymous said...

Great question, Kaveman. The single most effective argument I have ever used never touches on any of the "philosophy" issues you bring up. The best argument I've used is this:

"You're right. Most people never need a gun. 99 times out of a hundred. But, I think guns are like fire extinguishers. Having a fire extinguisher doesn't make me a fireman. But having a fire extinguisher can keep a small problem from becoming a big problem. And, when you need a fire extinguisher, you REALLY need a fine extinguisher."

Works every time. You can see the lights go on in their eyes.

Anonymous said...

I've managed to convince two hoplophobes. My wife, and her best friend. It took me over three years to get them to a range. Once they actually fired a weapon, and realized it WASN'T going to leap out of their hands and shoot the place up, their whole outlook changed. None of the philosophical arguments ever worked because they didn't coincide with what they "felt" about guns.
I still think taking someone to shoot at a range, especially at a time when the range isn't very busy, is the best way to change their mind about firearms.

Anonymous said...

"Do you have the right to own howitzers, B-52’s and nukes?"

That one has always bugged me.

Anonymous said...

My wife's best friend married a good ol' chap from the country where England used to be. Took him to the range when he was in. Fired the AR-15, M70AB2 (I have a hard time saying AK-47 because it's not full-auto), and my Bulgy Makarov. After getting over the initial shock of not seeing any The Children(tm) killed by Accurized Spray Fire(tm), I couldn't get the grin off of his face. Told him that a few more trips to the range with me just might knock the Socialism out of him.

Anonymous said...

If it's a person whom I know is anti-gun or someone who drops anti-gun hints in conversation, I don't talk about it and change the subject.

Their mind is made up, and it's not worth my time to try and change them. Throwing your pearls before swine only gets you and and the stuff you love all dirty and messy. :)

Now, if it's someone with no opinion or open-minded on things, then I'll continue the conversation.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @12:37,

If an individual has no right, how can a group of individuals have a right. That's how I would respond to the howitzer people.

And personally, I'm all in favor of anyone having any weapon with which they can defend themselves from an imminent, direct, real threat.

Does a nuclear weapon fall into that category? Don't know. I do know that I'm not going to stop you if you want one, and you're not dangerous. If you start putting others at real, immediate and deliberate risk, I will stop you. Real simple.

Anonymous said...

I can't honestly say I have found a really effective argument in support of an armed citizenry when talking to hoplophobes. And I have used them all and more that you mentioned.

The one thing I have noticed is common to them all. They didn't mean they shouldn't have a choice of whether to be armed, they just meant those "other people" shouldn't be. And no amount of talking and debating seems to convince them that to those who would abuse them, they are those other people.

It seems the egotistical elite are beyond thought.

Weer'd Beard said...

This is really where the battle will be won kaveman!

I have turned a bunch of antis into neutrals, a bunch of neutrals into pro-gunnies, and I've seen a few people (not nearly enugh) buy their first gun in part because of my actions.

Not all antis are alike. Some (like myself, or my wife) will turn around once they relize that the anti-gun lobby makes their bread-and-butter out of pure-and-simple lies. They aren't flat-earth holocaust deniers. When they see the truth they follow it.

Of course there's the other type. Those too arrogant, brainwashed, or politically connected to accept the truth.

Still I've seen people stop talking about guns in earshot or on the internet where people can respond, I've seen comments shut down, I've seen antis make ripe fools of themselves for all to see with ad-hominem attacks or obvious logical fallacies, and I've even seen a few blogs vanish into the eather.

It's hard to think anything but that we're winning.

DJMooreTX said...

I have changed exactly one mind, a friend, at a cocktail party.

"Do you trust George Bush to tell you whether or not you should have an abortion?

"Do you trust him to keep Big Business from destroying the environment"

"Do you trust him to run a just, humane war in the Middle East?

"No?

"Then why do you trust him to be the only one with the guns, in the form of those traditional tools of government oppression, the military and police?"

One convert. Several quick changes of subject.

No answers.

(Of course, that line won't work now, since the Right Guy is currently in office, and he will Show the Way, and no Bush will ever again foul the Most Powerful Office in the World.)

I should add, I've had several long conversations with my Mom, and have fallen into a pattern of asking her to define her terms, then gently correcting her. She's not quite ready to arm herself, but she's beginning to accept that I may not be entirely crazy on this issue.

Dad, a minister, psychologist, and liberal pacifist, doesn't talk much politics these days, but did say once he thought it would be okay for me to have a gun -- a huge concession for him.

Parents are special cases, though.

DJMooreTX said...

Oh, I forgot to say, Mom's beginning to be a bit perturbed at discovering how much she's been lied to on this issue.

Another friend I've been trying to work this tactic on simply falls back to, "Well, there's been a lot of lying on both sides," but can't come up with any examples I can't refute.

"You have all the answers!" Which of course means I'm wrong -- only a loon would be so well informed.

She's normally a very formidable debater on politics, and has brought me up short several times, but she has a severe blind spot on this point.

drjim said...

Well, I've turned one 'neutral' into a 'pro'.....my girlfriend. She'd never even held a gun before she met me. After getting her enrolled into the NRA "First Steps" class, she saw that firearms were something to be respected, not feared. After going to the range a few times with me, she doesn't even flinch when the guy in the next stall fires a 44 mag.
She now has her own gun, and we go to the range regularly. And my sweetie, bless her little heart, has changed a bunch of 'antis' to 'neutrals', and a couple of them want to come to the range and see what it's all about.

Anonymous said...

"The 2A is a State’s right to have a Militia."

Heller sent that argument into outer space. It no longer exists on this planet and was last seen passing Mars. Helmke and Henigan still weep over the loss.