Tuesday, November 13, 2007

"Assault Brush" results in 20 shots being fired.

But not by the brush. Instead by five officers against the mentally ill individual holding it. I wonder how many of the rounds actually hit?

Update: They've updated the page. It says he was struck 8 times. That means 12 rounds went flying in other directions to hit homes and other unsuspecting victims. A 40% hit rate. Pretty pathetic.

Update2: The recent reports are that the police are claiming they opened fire from a distance of 5-7 feet. Yet they couldn't tell that the brush wasn't a gun, didn't attempt to taze or mace him, and missed 12 out of 20 shots at less than 10 feet.

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well police are human, they have families they want to go home to, loved ones to spend time with etc.

Think about it...if you were one of them how would you react..

A 911 call stating a young man with a gun is acting weirdly. You go to the scene and see a young man who is NOT listening, approaching you with something hidden under his shirt. Why should police have to wait until the gun is shown (at which point they could be shot dead) before reacting.

It is a tragedy, but I don't believe police were 100% wrong here...

Kate25 said...

I think the Police should have at least fired one shot that was non Lethal, in the arm or the sholder or the leg.. just so they could subdue him.. they did not have to shoot off 20 rounds into him..
thats like what 6 cops firing at once.. i dont think they needed to do that

Thirdpower said...

Well anonymous, could you give me the reasoning behind the fact that the police fired twenty rounds?

That's not "overly cautious", that's trigger happy.

Anonymous said...

First of all, yes the kid is an idiot just like Rodney King, but the point is 20 shots?! The police in this country are under qualified and blood thirsty.

Michael Hawkins said...

How many hit?

Well, he was struck eight times, go figure ...

Unknown said...

The requests being made on "police policy" reflect the growing double-standard of American hypocrisy...

We want the freedom to go about whatever business in whatever form we choose, with no security measures, searches, or disruptions, false imprisonments, or inconvenience...

Yet we want to be perfectly safe and protected from foreign threats...

Without a telepathic police force, there is NO system that can avoid false negatives and false positives...

Anonymous said...

I really dont understand some of you people, all of you dont realize how much these cops have to deal with for such little pay. They didn't join the force for the money they did it to protect and serve and thats what they did here. Multiple people said he had a gun and he didnt listen to orders to get down. Then he mad a gesture of pulling something out and pointing it at the cops, and the cops arents suppose to shoot, come on guys. 20 shots is not alot for 4 officers. 5 rounds can be squeezed of in a matter of seconds. I don't think the police are going to fire once and give him the chance to fire back, because some people feel 20 shots is excessive. Put yourself in their position and if you think you have a gun pointed at you, are you going to give him the chance to kill you? And for the people who say they should have just wounded him, sorry this is not the movies where every shot goes exaclty where you want it. Yea this is a sad story but in no way should we blame the poilce. Why wasn't he getting his medication, blame the parents.

Anonymous said...

Thirdpower said...
Well anonymous, could you give me the reasoning behind the fact that the police fired twenty rounds?

That's not "overly cautious", that's trigger happy.

As I told you the first time they had their lives to think about...This is my third comment

Thirdpower said...

With 12 rounds flying loose. Would you say the same had one of those hit an innocent bystander? Howabout if it was done by a non-LEO?

20 round against a single individual is excessive force no matter how bad their shooting skills are.

Kate25 said...

again.. I dont understand why they didnt hit him with a non lethal shot first.. they just pummled him full of bullets.. 1 or 8 it doesnt matter.. they DID NOT have to shoot to kill.. just to subdue him and handcuff him.
That is thier JOB! to keep people safe.. not kill people, they can injure all they want to get the suspect down on the ground to arrest him.. they DID NOT have to shoot him to death

Anonymous said...

these cops are pathetic... and everyone can go on about how they have to deal with thise and that.. well guess what it's there job they knew what they were signing up for that doesnt give them the right to shoot this poor kid 8 times.... these cops were nothing but pussies and karmas a bitch and i would love to see them get theres someday

Anonymous said...

A lack of objectivity and reason dominate this site. Maybe you all need to lay off drinking your own Kool-aid for a while and try living in the real world. If you pretend to have a gun when facing the police, you are probably going to be shot. And justifiably so. Officers do not need to put their life on the line in situations like this. They should defend themselves. Blame in this case lies solely with the individual who pretended to have a gun. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your anti-government "its always the government's fault" view of the world; but that's reality. To suggest otherwise is to profess your ignorance. To the extent people rally arount this individual as some symbol of racial injustice, they are idiots and detracting from their cause. Pick your cause and the face of it - this kid is not it. This is an idiot who acted like he had a gun, engaged the police and got shot.

Thirdpower said...

So then "anonymous" starts w/ the ad hominems and insults instead of answering my questions. Typical. Were the police justified in shooting him? Yes. Firing 20 times? No. Missing 12 out of those 20? No. That makes them trigger happy and bad shots combined.

When others shoot a dozen bullets randomly in a neighborhood, it's called a gang war.

Anonymous said...

Were the police justified in shooting him? Yes. Firing 20 times? No.

The police were justified in using whatever force they believed necessary to stop the threat. Period. End of story. Whether you, sitting at home comfortably in your arm chair typing out an uninformed blog comment, agree with that judgment call is frankly irrelevant.

Missing 12 out of those 20? No. That makes them trigger happy and bad shots combined.

Have you ever fired a gun before? Situations like this aren't the target practice range. Hearts are pounding, adrenaline is pumping, all the while a maniac is purporting to not only be in possession of a gun, he is now pointing a black object at you. I'd like to see *you* even get one good hit out of your gun in such circumstances. Good lord, bullets don't yet have targetting sensors built in to them. You're expecting these cops to be inhuman. Only a machine could get the hit accuracy you're moronically demanding here.

Anonymous said...

When was the last time you fired a gun at a moving target under duress?

Highly doubt you ever have.

You call 20 round "trigger happy". Look at the math.
20 rounds.
5 officers.
4 rounds each.

That sounds highly restrained to me.

Or did you first expect them to decide by committee how many bullets each were to fire?

You also said "20 round against a single individual is excessive force no matter how bad their shooting skills are."

If it had been one officer then perhaps this statement would have a smidge of accuracy but again you are playing fast and loose with the math.

Each officer fired 4 rounds for arguments sake.

You also said "With 12 rounds flying loose. Would you say the same had one of those hit an innocent bystander? Howabout if it was done by a non-LEO?"

It's the intent that matters. I don't care if 12 bullets were indiscriminately fired by cops, gang-bangers or the pope. But considering that those cops were trying to protect themselves and the rest of the community I'm willing to cut them some slack.

Also, here's a perspective of law enforcement that most never comprehend. The police officer, when arriving on the scene, almost never has a clear picture of what is going on. They need to gain immediate control of the situation then figure out what is going on.

It's always quite easy to sit back, after the fact, and pick it all apart. Or course, no matter how good it gets it's never good enough for some.

4 cops fire 41 shots at Amadou Diallo. That's 10 shots each. IT's horrible and the cops are "murderous scum".

50 shots fired at Sean Bell by 5 cops. Again, 10 each. Despite the fact that UC officers heard a member of Bell's party claim to have a gun and Sean Bell being almost twice the legal limit when entering his car the cops apparently did everything wrong.

Now we come to this instance. 5 cops. 20 shots. 4 shots each. They fired 6 less shots per person then either of the above but still that's not good enough.

Face the facts:
-deranged guy resisting arrest and failing to comply.
-deranged guy antagonizing 5 cops by pretending to have a gun.
-911 call about a domestic disturbance.

The guy wanted to suicide by cop and that's what he got.

Anonymous said...

A 40% hit rate. Pretty pathetic.

You're the only one here who is pathetic. As someone who apparently purports to know something about firearms, your stance on this issue is laughable.

In combat firing there is no time to do take a nice, controlled breath, align the sights perfectly, and then take a shot. Not only are we dealing with a moving target in this scenario, there is little reaction time. Not to mention the shaking caused by increased heart rate and surges of adrenaline.

Thirdpower said...

So you both know for a fact it was 4 rounds per officer? Really? Care to show that evidence or are you just assuming because it sounds better? The math on the Bell case is wrong showing you didn't do your research before posting. One officer, Isnora, fired 31 times. That means he reloaded 2-3 times. Three of the officers are under indictment for manslaughter, reckless endagerment, and assault. But it was all in the heat of the moment, right? The murder of Diallo resulted in the disbanding of the Street Crime Unit for repeated abuses, just like the Chicago Special Operations Unit that was recently disolved.
But that's not excessive in your world where the police can do no wrong and are above the law.

These officers released a barrage of fire against a single individual and managed to hit him less than half the time. They are allegedly trained to react to these situations and they are failing miserably. It would be different if it were an isolated incident, but, as you both have so clearly emphasized, it isn't.

Anonymous said...

Lets not forget,he was mentally ill.Was that relayed on the 911 tape? Not from what i heard!! Also
did the mother relay that to the police after the police got to the apartment? The mother didnt sound to frantic more annoyed then anything.Had the police been told this info maybe they would have tazzed him,who knows.If this would have been a white kid it wouldnt have made national news. Now we have to hear idiots like Al sharpton for the the next week. Thanks alot!!!

Anonymous said...

Other cases are not relevant to this incident, so I will ignore them for the desperate grasping at straws that they clearly are.

These officers released a barrage of fire against a single individual and managed to hit him less than half the time.

Which they did entirely legally. It was not only justified, there was no other course of action left to be taken. The subject escalated the incident and therefore took all less-lethal options off the table. The number of shots fired is, frankly, irrelevant.

They are allegedly trained to react to these situations and they are failing miserably. It would be different if it were an isolated incident, but, as you both have so clearly emphasized, it isn't.

You're ignoring the previous reasonable responses to this. The reaction you are expecting is humanly impossible. I will not re-address the same points ad nauseum.

You betray your utter ignorance in this matter. It's not only pathetic, it's disgusting. I pray that you will never find yourself in the situation that these officers had to face. Nobody deserves that, though it would certainly be an interesting and eye-opening object lesson for you.

Thirdpower said...

Translation: "I can't support any of my statements so will continue to make the ad hominems and insults while whining "You're wrong" over and over."

I pray that you never encounter one of these officers who joined for the power trip and/or never received adequate training. I'm sure your worldview would change.

Anonymous said...

Nice to see your website thirdpower. I'll be checking in periodically.

Anonymous said...

http://nypdrant64609.yuku.com/topic/5318/t/Bed-Stuy-1-DOA.html?page=1

Here's an NYPD chat board on this. Don't bother looking for sympathy for the dead guy or questions about the shooting being anything other than justified. And the eeevil media and the feckless bosses are gonna sell the POs down the river.
No remorse though.

20 shots, 8 hits...typical