Thursday, August 27, 2015

The Palladium Books/Robotech RRT Fiasco

Or 'A Troll By Any Other Name'

Some time ago I posted a rant about the delayed Robotech minis game and the response by a small, vocal, incredibly nasty group that had basically taken over the response board, turning it into the equivalent of youtube or yahoo.  Since then, I have spoken personally to the president of the company, Kevin Siembieda about it and the game is slowly coming along. 

He, however, finally got sick and tired of the trolls and posted what amounts to a 'screw off and let the real fans enjoy our game' post. For the most part I agree w/ it so I poked the bear a bit since we know for a fact that the trolls ARE a minority:
The trolls are a small, vocal, and sad minority that have not carried out a single one of their threats of trashing the game at GenCon, lawsuits, etc. Still waiting guys. Come on. Call me a 'White Knight' or some other insult. I'll just laugh as my minis get painted and I enjoy some gaming.
And I got the predictable response from the loudest of the trolls:
 in case you haven't been paying attention us "Trolls" as you call us have already started filing with the BBB and the Attorney generals of various states and the list is growing, so while those of you who sit and turn the other cheek think your getting wave 2, guess again your getting nothing because PB has nothing to send and when the law gets thru with them they will be lucky if they are still a company.
They've 'already started filing w/ the BBB..."

Yeah.  OK.  Three complaints so far out of over 5,300 backers.  Whoop dee frickin do.  I got more complaints than that from the OGRE sheets because I didn't start shipping out the same day as the main game and I hadn't even received them yet. 

AG's?  Yeah. OK. Sure skippy.  These keyboard commandoes have been making the same threats for the last year plus.  None have shown ANY evidence.  Why?  Because no AG is going to bother.

Kevin's shakin' in his boots.  I'm sure.

Just to emphasize the 'Troll' creds.... take a look at the profile.  ONE project backed.  Near 5,900 comments. Almost every one making threats, insults, and ridiculous claims.

Now screw off and let the real fans enjoy our game.

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Allen said...

since when did gamers turn into a bunch of big whiny babies?

I remember waiting 3 years for the next module in a series from TSR..we didn't bitch..we just set that game and characters aside and played something else.

gaming companies are always promising what they can't deliver, and sometimes what they deliver isn't up to par. anyone else remember the "battletech simulators" back at gencon/origins 1988, and how they would be in "every mall in the country" and there would be national tournaments by 1990? FASA overreached themselves. and they paid the price for it.

Palladium has had their problems released late (honestly I'd rather have late than crap..I know I'm not alone here) the promised "rifts movie" that never happened...I'm sure there are hundreds of projects we never even heard of that never made it to print.

there is one simple reason I have always cut palladium slack. in the RPG "Systems Failure" they presented militia types (Survivalist OCC) not as villains, or monsters, but as regular people. this was a rare thing for 1999. and they should be rewarded for that alone.

Thirdpower said...

It's not all gamers by far. In this case it's about 2 dozen keyboard commandoes emboldened by their isolation. Not a single one of them made a scene at any 'Con over the last two years even though they've made countless threats to do so.

Palladium's made a lot of mistakes during this but they're still producing, albeit slowly. These are nothing but petulant children crying because they haven't gotten their plastic army men when they wanted them.

Allen said...

I would bet that those "keyboard commandos" never actually PLAY the games. big babies like that don't actually have friends to play RPG's with..they're content to stare at a screen, push buttons on a handheld controller, and make comments about someone elses momma. actual face-to-face interaction is beyond their abilities.

Anonymous said...

Well it appears Roy Kubicek is talking out of his ass, well here is his proof that he says does not exist:

Anonymous said...

furthermore its the white knights like you that are the minority, go look at the forums count the number of "complainers" and those disgruntled with PB, the number grows.

Anonymous said...

@Allen those examples you gave did buyers give their money to the companies? i know I gave my money to this company and 2 years down the road still missing product, furthermore I have shown more assembled and painted miniatures from this game then most of the "white Knights" combined, and hell of a lot more then Mr. Kubicek here, hell he has shown us nothing of his game, or his miniatures, oh wait thats right hes selling them for a profit, or at least he was trying too.

also Allen I'm not afraid to meet anyone and tell them my mind.

@thirdpower, PB has shown nothing but a couple of pretty 3D drawings for wave 2 after 2 years of receiving the money.

this so called blogger you follow has not given you the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but go ahead and be led astray.

Anonymous said...

also one last thing as pointed out only closed complaints show up, not the open ones which thanks to Mr. Kubicek here are now increasing.

Anonymous said...

Ah, yes, Palladium Books “White Knights.” People who have been buying whatever tripe gets shoveled off on them for so long they don’t understand that the real world doesn’t work this way.

You’re right, I haven’t played RRT because the game is insipid. This isn’t a wargame. It’s isn’t an RPG. It isn’t a tactics game. The only people this “game” actually seems to interest are die-hard Palladium Books fans. They’re the only ones who will put up with the excuses and behavior of Palladium Books—the company who ensured this “game” would never be successful.

1. Inconsistent rules that waffle between too complex (melee) and too basic (cover).
2. Rules laid out so badly that multiple readings are required just to know where to find specific rules.
3. Ridiculously complex micro-scale models that are too fragile to effectively use on the board.
4. Those same overly-complex models lack anything approaching multi-pose ability that significantly less complex and higher detailed miniatures achieve with alarming regularity.
5. The assumption that the rest of the world would be as “understanding” as their “fan-friends” over the complete lack of communication and smoke and mirrors operating system.
6. The unwillingness to open a two-way dialogue with the people who made this possible.
7. A desire to only communicate through their company forums where they can control the discussion as dissension is removed to prevent anyone from seeing the ugly underpinnings of their ineptitude.
8. A complete lack of willingness to actively promote the game—blaming the backers for the game’s demise before it has even completely come out.

As a point of order, I actually played Relic Knights this last weekend. I’ve played it several times at my FLGS. My FLGS can’t keep it on the shelves (well, one box of Noh Empire keeps staying there). Relic Knights had numerous delays and issues during its production but they still released a fun game that has an audience. Palladium Books has pretty much ensured that Robotech RPG Tactics has no future.

But, this blog appears to follow the standard Palladium Books logic: Make wild accusations. Blame everyone except those who are actually at fault. Put their head in the sand and pretend Kevin’s in his office, all’s right with the world.

Thirdpower said...

And the Bravely Anonymous commentators respond w/ the usual.

One blow off letter from an AG. Still only 3 BBB complaints 'closed' after over a year of threats to shut down the company. Farts in the wind.

And some traditional troll nonsense:

"oh wait thats right hes selling them for a profit, or at least he was trying too."

What was actually said : "I admit I funded at a fairly high level to sell off enough via second market to pay for the ones I got and to get them painted "

That's not 'for a profit'.

So seems all the 'wild accusations' and 'heads in the sand' are all coming from one direction.

Thanks for the traffic.


@Allen: You're comparing apples to volkwagons unless you paid hundres of dollars (the average pledge size) multiple years in advance for that TSR module. Sorry, but your grognard uphill both ways in the snow comparison doesn't apply.

While Rick is indeed frequently ridiculous and over the top, he is no more so than the folks at Palladium. They're both Mirror Universe versions of each other but in his case he at least has a point. Palladium is at fault here for a massively delayed kickstarter, not the fans no matter how vocal or vehement they are. The underlying CONTINUING cause is the incompetence of the company in getting out the rewards they promised DESPITE HAVING 400% OF THE INITIAL TIME THEY TOLD US TO DO IT. Even faced with that massive failure of project management, they refuse to address any requests from backers to get some form of immediate redress for their pledges. Palladium has not budged an inch and has in fact taken steps back with their ridiculous promises of better communication followed by literal trolling of backers and then long winded "woe is me" victim blaming with simultaneous playing the victim on their part.

The words "estimate" and "kickstarter" do NOT give a company permission to do whatever they want (up to and including NOTHING) for how ever long they want (up to and including FOREVER).

As for the number of BBB and AG complaints, those take effort above and beyond just posting in your free time. If they go through, they might be tremendous time sinks in public for what amounts to a day to a few days wages depending on the backer and pledge. It simply isn't worth it for most folks to take the next (legal) step. The fact that any gamers have done it is notable and should point out how much of a massive missed opportunity this project has been.

Mark said...

and in one post third power you managed to show how fucking stupid you are, congrats.

also I've seen the work Mad Rick has done, have I seen any work from this blogger? no, have I seen any work from those who defend Palladium? very little are you actually Roy in disguise? probably, are you the only one who usually reads your blogs? yes, are you a little boy living in his parents basement, well maybe a 30 year old with no life? most definately, go back to your psycho babble and fearful living, let the big boys sit back and watch Palladium burn.


@Mark: Are you referring to me?

Mark said...

no Thirdpower or whatever his name is.

Anonymous said...

Those types of gamers have been in every genre.
They always seemed to be worse in tabletop miniature and CCG's as they can brag about having Rares and how they built the ultimate army.

Anyone that's ever done a pick up group at the local gaming store can relate to the "I am the greatest gamer ever and you couldn't touch my character if you wanted to!" player that eventually turns up.

Sadly, if Palladium would just communicate more, showing that they aren't making much progress, but, at least some progress in the right direction, they could get some slack. But, leaving everyone in the dark with nothing but months of 'we'll have news soon!" and not delivering gets more and more people frustrated.

If I had more free time, I'd probably be ticked off too. As it stands, I'm in just a mild disappointment. I have too much going on in my life that's preventing me from finishing my army/playing to worry too much about Wave 2 until it either arrives or gets canned.

Thirdpower said...

"Sadly, if Palladium would just communicate more, showing that they aren't making much progress, but, at least some progress in the right direction, they could get some slack. But, leaving everyone in the dark with nothing but months of 'we'll have news soon!" and not delivering gets more and more people frustrated."

I totally get that and agree wholeheartedly. I'm also frustrated and disappointed at the wait. I'm also a grown-up who doesn't throw a temper tantrum when I don't get my toys when I want them.

Having done this kind of work online for years, I can also understand somewhat where PB is coming from. They used to update regularly w/ pics, etc. Unfortunately that group of individuals so efficiently exampled above took over the boards near the beginning and work as a pack to demean, insult, and shout down any differing opinions other than their own pathalogical hate fest. They even posted links to this in numerous places w/ cutnpaste remarks in order to try and crap all over my site.

It's OK though, I've been called worse things by better.

James said...


so tell me how much is Palladium paying you? since so far your the only one on the ks forums who have commented any positivity towards Palladium in a long time, even the most boiterous Palladium defenders have stopped since they have even seen the light.

So my point is to keep defending them like that, makes me think you do work for them or on their payroll or such, now while i'm not part of the ones filing with the BBB or my states AG, I can understand them, the fact you attack them and claim they have nothing to go on, just tells me you are scared they do have something to go on, as another poster said your acting like a scared little boy whining about these backers who have the guts to say no to PB, and afraid you will never get your little toys, well hate to break it to you without going into some confidential information, unless a miracle happens, PB will not be bringing out wave 2 this year next year pretty much never, they are in some serious financial issues trying to get a loan and have already been to court recently over another matter of an overdue loan, and wouldn't be surprised if Palladium files bankruptcy within the next year if not sooner.

Thirdpower said...


'confidential information'. Pathological levels of character attacks.

Heard it all before from other under the bridge residents.

Anonymous said...

It can be rather upsetting when a person with a legitimate complaint not getting resolution is lumped with the name "Troll".
They took money during the kickstarter saying Ninja Division was heading it and shipment estimate was a few months away.
They took backer kit orders after they funded of specific items.
They upped the shipping charges after saying $40 was a flat rate.

So, December 2014 NA backers get "wave1" rather than the proposed December 2013 completion date = 1 year later. Right after that, no progress details are given for "wave2" for about 6 months, hinted at mind but still nothing.

Only by poking them with BBB complaints do they finally stir to address the unhappiness but STILL no constructive details. Also, more than 3 complaints are lodged it takes some time for them to be displayed by the BBB = send complaint, PB replies, complainer submits a response indicating resolution or not. Then the complaint is posted for all to see. If a reply is not sent, the cycle stops and is not published (which is what I suspect is happening).

I truly do not care about "trolls" or "white knights" or "Palladium Books" and their own special reality: If you were to give money to someone and be promised product would you not get a little upset when it starts looking like 2 1/2 years (what I anticipate if they are truthful about working on the project) before completion if at all?

Robotech I really enjoyed as a show, the wave1 models are a bit on the fussy side to build (tough on inexperienced modelers!) but they are pretty good rules are serviceable. I am a fan of Robotech, not so much PB and their way of handling things, especially money: they may have run out.

I am not here to wine about getting my man-toys, it is the principle of someone taking my money and deciding they are not answerable to their customers. Or at least the tone is rather paternal which is an irritant. What is a sufficient time period to wait? Or should we be happy to have the "opportunity" and be grateful we got anything at all? Typically adults will give their word on something and if it goes south, you explain why and do your best.

Assurances sound more like lies as time drags on.

Thirdpower said...

And THAT is how adults discuss and get things accomplished.

Unfortunately that is not the dialogue that has existed on the KS comment board since early on. More of them have been closer to the enlightened commentary of certain elements here than what is above.

Stephen said...

and yet here you sit, doing the same thing as the "whiners" except your whining about them, what does that say about you ThirdPower? it just makes you another spoiled kid plain and simple, you are just as bad as them, instead of solution (which the backers who are mad at PB some are working on a solution) you just deride them which is a point made earlier, if you were not afraid of them you would not have felt to make this blog deriding them.

and yet here you are, which says your nothing but a pathetic whiny kid just like them, grow up and be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

Thirdpower said...

And here we have another example of the other type of comment who supports the 'solution' of 'watching Palladium burn'.

Great plan there. I'm sure it will work well for all involved.

Stephen said...

Actually I'd be considered Apathetic don't care which way it goes, just pointing out you act like a scared child by trying to make fun of those doing something, while you do nothing but make fun of them, that is pathetic and also why people are laughing at you and your blog, that and it seems th only positive comments made about your blog are made by you, so what does that say about you and your blog?

Thirdpower said...

Yes. So 'apathetic' that one continues the need to make more comments w/ tired, sophomoric, and entirely unoriginal insults. Feel free to continue. It makes my point that the trolls have nothing positive to offer except to 'watch Palladium burn' which is the childish behavior if one actually knew anything about children.

Allen said...

"@Allen: You're comparing apples to volkwagons unless you paid hundres of dollars (the average pledge size) multiple years in advance for that TSR module. Sorry, but your grognard uphill both ways in the snow comparison doesn't apply"

sooo..."I'm a NEW gamer and none of your old stuff is relevant blah blah blah" well get the hell of my lawn! goddamned whippersnappes don't know how good they got it!

very little is new under the sun, pup. quit bitching. you pledged money. no one cares. it was a gamble that you took, and you lost, and now it's everyone elses problem? withdraw your money, go play Battletech. or Mekton. or a hundred other games that do the same thing, and are far more established, playtested, and actually work.

hell take your money, and the money of all the other bitchy little whiners, and go BUY the rights to Mekton. or better yet,make your own damn game. it must be easy, right? I mean, the incompetent idiots over at palladium can do it, and you're so awesome...maybe you can put them out of business!